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Geohavens: World of Rocks, Minerals, Gems and Gemmology :: Gemstone Discussion :: Rubies and Sapphires
 "Red Sapphires"
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| aloysiushan |
Posted on 08-03-2009 19:45
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Super Admin Posts: 41 Joined: 08.09.08 |
Red sapphires! Queer sounding, but it is a dilemma. With the advent of beryllium treatment, some sapphire material can be treated to produce dazzling red stones - what should we call these beasts? Should we call them rubies because they are red? Can we? Rubies are stones whose primary tone is red - or is it defined as red and produced by Chromium chromophore? I suspect we may have to call them "red sapphires" after all, because the chromophore is not Chromium and certainly the emission spectra of these treated red stones do not produce the characteristic ruby spectrum. |
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| agianto |
Posted on 08-03-2009 22:01
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Junior Member Posts: 32 Joined: 10.02.09 |
I would call those stones that have their color changed from their original by their species name. Therefore, the diffused red sapphires would be called Natural Corundum, Treated or may be Natural Sapphire, Treated without being specific with their varieties. This way I don't have to worry about their real colors also.
Edited by agianto on 08-03-2009 23:06 |
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| aloysiushan |
Posted on 09-03-2009 15:17
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Super Admin Posts: 41 Joined: 08.09.08 |
Good idea. |
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| agianto |
Posted on 28-04-2009 06:17
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Junior Member Posts: 32 Joined: 10.02.09 |
But members of the Laboratory Manual Harmonisation Committee (LMHC) would disagree! For they have standardized their nomenclature as follows: http://www.gubelinlab.com/pdf/LMHC_InformationSheet_2_CorundumDiffusion.pdf I guess there is a "red sapphire" afterall?! |
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| aloysiushan |
Posted on 28-04-2009 09:20
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Super Admin Posts: 41 Joined: 08.09.08 |
So that is the point traders have been harping about. These labs self-professed that they are the authority and start introducing standards for the rest of the world. Who gave them such authority to name stones as they like? Remember that labs do make mistakes. GIA fouled up on diamond grading some years back and sacked a good number of people. AGTA and some other labs messed up with the identification of "Natural Andesine" - it turned out that many of these andesines were diffused. Then comes the problem: when these labs are pursued about this misidentification they said "We never knew about it." and got off scot-free. Famous gemmologists like Lore Kiefert and Dick Hughes signed off on their now useless lab reports. Experts? Traders are responsible for all misidentifications and "We never knew about it." just don't cut it. If the gem labs don't know about the treatments, how can people expect traders to know ahead of them? Of course, treatments are developed by traders and then released undisclosed to the market. Traders themselves are equally unprotected as the labs. Issuing wrong reports is deeply embarassing - given the fact that they all the rocket science equipment in their garden! |
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| agianto |
Posted on 29-04-2009 18:06
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Junior Member Posts: 32 Joined: 10.02.09 |
Well, we do need an AUTHORITY though or the gem and jewellery trade will be like an old Chinese saying, "a plate of loose sands." Who should the unfamiliar public believe, if each of us is saying differently? Coloured Gemstones will never become an investment portofolio like Diamonds if these uncertainties were to continue!  All treatments are welcome because these innovations increase gems availability. But please disclose them to secure long term gains! Edited by agianto on 29-04-2009 18:32 |
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| aloysiushan |
Posted on 02-05-2009 11:40
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Super Admin Posts: 41 Joined: 08.09.08 |
Yes indeed. We do need an authority on this, but the entire gems and jewellery trade cannot agree on it; I don't expect it to in the near future anyway. The 'authorities' have embarassed themselves real bad the last few years and most coloured stones are still traded without lab reports/independent third party opinion. There are other factors as well -- coloured stones seldom sell for the big figures that accompany diamonds. Traders are indeed apprehensive about commiting to a lab opinion early. Trends are beginning to change though. More consumers know how to request for a lab test now, and I am pleased with that. |
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| agianto |
Posted on 02-05-2009 21:42
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Junior Member Posts: 32 Joined: 10.02.09 |
Out of curiosity, I did a google search on "red sapphire". Amazingly, there are many offers online. Most of them just said red sapphires, and only one described as enhanced red sapphires. What worst there is a "natural red sapphire rough" being offered on ebay! Well said by Vincent Pardieu(http://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=22179):"Red gem variety of mineral corundum is called ruby. All other varieties are called "sapphire". Ruby is more expensive than sapphire... At AIGS lab many companies send us some borderline stones between purple and red, or orange and red hoing that they will get a report with "orangy red ruby" or "purplish red ruby", if we issue the word sapphire they are not that happy... and I understand this. So why should people call a stone a red sapphire? Think about it..." But this is getting ridiculuous! |
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| aloysiushan |
Posted on 03-05-2009 03:22
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Super Admin Posts: 41 Joined: 08.09.08 |
It is precisely all about money that things are deliberately ambiguous. Rubies and sapphires are routinely heat treated. But heat treatment is considered "traditional" - even though it became widespread only in 1980s when the Thais mastered geuda treatment. Same with "alexandrites". People will always try to sell a weakly changing stone as alexandrites. Pink sapphires will be sold as rubies if they can... Orangy pink sapphires sold as padparadschas. That's how things go in the world - money makes the world go round. Gemmologists are there to provide an alternative opinion, but at the end of the day it is about the consumers(and even traders) using their eyes to see what they are buying! |
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| agianto |
Posted on 14-05-2009 19:04
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Junior Member Posts: 32 Joined: 10.02.09 |
The CIBJO's Gemstone Blue Book (http://www.cibjo.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=72&Itemid=210)seems to agree with the LMHC guys. Thus the "red sapphire" terminology is acceptable BUT with proper disclosure according to clause 4.7. |
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| agianto |
Posted on 17-05-2009 17:12
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Junior Member Posts: 32 Joined: 10.02.09 |
aloysiushan wrote: AGTA and some other labs messed up with the identification of "Natural Andesine" - it turned out that many of these andesines were diffused. GREAT NEWS! AGTA has accepted the fact that most of the red andesines are diffused and has required its members to disclose them according to their Gem Information Manual: http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/agta/andesine.htm |
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| aloysiushan |
Posted on 20-05-2009 01:13
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Super Admin Posts: 41 Joined: 08.09.08 |
Excellent news indeed! I wonder whether have they started compensating people for the mistakes? It is incredible there labs are allowed to make mistakes and get away scot free and the jewellers are stuck with stones wrongly tested, and will therefore lose thousands! These andesines have gone worthless - just like the beryllium-diffused "padparadschas" in 2002! Folks went bankrupt because of that; some suicided. I hope the same thing don't happen with andesines! |
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| junyi |
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| polaris1028 |
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